Scratch Civ V off my buy list.

Published on May 6, 2010 By Alstein In PC Gaming

http://store.steampowered.com/news/3792/

I wonder if this means Brad Wardell will stop working with Civ V.

I just can't support DRM, that while not TOO bad, helps enforce a near-monopoly. This may be a blow to the other DD providers- as this is the biggest game to do this so far.

Hopefully EWOM is everything I want, because now I'm relying on it.

(Note: I do use Steam, I just won't support being forced to use it on non-Valve products)

Comments (Page 8)

106

Dale_

on May 07, 2010

joasoze

reply 102

"The Steam happy people" seems to miss the point of the "The Steam not so happy people"

The problem is not that it is on Steam, its that it is Steam only. You have to install the Steam software even if you buy it at Gamestop. This is what many have a problem with. Many players play single player only and dont want the Steam functionality.

The "Steam only" thing also raises the question of Steam getting too much market power. When huge games like CIV V comes on one platform only, that creates an uncomfortable feeling for many.

Saying that "I am happy with Steam and there is no problem" doesnt address the concerns that many people have over this development.

So are you going to boycott Elemental because you MUST install Impulse? This is clearly marked on Stardock's product page for Elemental whether you buy the boxed version or not.

As for Stardock games locked to Impulse (oh the HERESY!), how about Sins?

Sins of a Solar Empire, like Stardock's Galactic Civilizations II before it, comes without any form of copy protection, but a product key registered to an Impulse account is required for updates and multiplayer.

Reading their Elemental product page reads very similar, that an Impulse account will be required for updates and multiplayer.

And let's not forget the Fences 0.99 controversy when the game installed Impulse and did all the things that users complain Steam does (connect to the internet, register online, scan your PC, etc) without even notifying the user, against the laws of many countries!

Valve has produced a product that works, that is easy to use, and their network can handle the demand of their products. If they obtain a natural monopoly because consumer choose them over other products, then you can't fault how business works. It just means their competitors (ie Stardock) need to produce a better product to take over.

I'm sorry, but when the CEO of a competitor to Steam slags on their competitor's software, they should make sure there's no reason to be called out that their software does the same.

107

Wintersong

on May 07, 2010

RAWRRRR

reply 99

I keep hearing this argument. So, you're big gripe with Steam is that is has to be running, but you don't mind Impulse because the ONLY difference is that Steam has to be running. Other people don't mind that, but they refuse to do it because they can't be bothered to set Steam to offline mode. This is the stupidest thing ever. Sure it's your choice, but it doesn't mean your rationale is in any way intelligent.

You are mostly right. Hmm Ok, the gripe is actually Steamworks. Also if I bought my game in retail, I don't need to install Impulse (and/or connect to it) to be able to install my game. And if we talk of Stardock games, then I'd only need to activate my game if I wanted to get patches and be online just enough to download/install them. That's a whole universe of difference compared to Steamworks.

Maybe Steam should rework its Steamworks to offer users (especially retail ones) the option of no installing Steam at all until the user actually wants to get online (for multiplayer if the game has it) and/or patches (which would be used as opportunity to register/validate the game). The Store part (once Steam client installed)? I don't care about it. I know that it's good for many people and others hate it. I simply ignore it because that's not DRM and the popups are harmless.

108

Wintersong

on May 07, 2010

Dale_

reply 106

Reading their Elemental product page reads very similar, that an Impulse account will be required for updates and multiplayer.

Elemental is a exclusive of Impulse anyway, as Sins. The price to pay for no disk checks or other bs that usually plagues PC games is that patches and multiplayer are with Impulse (which per se isn't bad. Would you feel better if intead they forced you to Filefront and Gamespy?). If you have no problems with Steam, neither with this then. And if you only care for patches, even better.

109

Strand

on May 07, 2010

RAWRRRR

reply 105

If Wikipedia (also a 3rd party site) is correct about the origin date of the Impulse client, then yes, Brad Wardell is wrong. All the information Guest posted is evidenced with links stating exactly what he stated whereas Brad provided only a reference to a search engine's general site.

Although I'm sure it's impossible for a CEO to be wrong... never happens.. ever.. just assume they are always correct and infallible. Works great in the banking business.

Here, let me elucidate some people with the history of Stardock and their download services.

Stardock
Stardock Central

Stardock and it's associated download services have been around a hell of a lot longer than Steam. Or even Valve as a company.

110

Dale_

on May 07, 2010

Wintersong

reply 108

Quoting Dale_, reply 106
Reading their Elemental product page reads very similar, that an Impulse account will be required for updates and multiplayer.

Elemental is a exclusive of Impulse anyway, as Sins. The price to pay for no disk checks or other bs that usually plagues PC games is that patches and multiplayer are with Impulse (which per se isn't bad. Would you feel better if intead they forced you to Filefront and Gamespy?). If you have no problems with Steam, neither with this then. And if you only care for patches, even better.

I'm not saying there's a problem with Elemental being Impulse exclusive, or even Civ5 being Steam exclusive. I'm saying that Brad shouldn't accuse 2K of doing exactly what he's doing with Elemental. He said he won't buy/mod/support Civ5 because it'll be locked inside Steamworks, yet with Sins and Elemental he's doing exactly that, closing those games inside Impulse.

Hence why I said IMO it was hypocritical.

111

Peace Phoenix

on May 07, 2010

Until the publishers/developers actually release games that function properly out of the box, requiring Impulse to update the game is just as invasive as Steam.

Well, if that article can be trusted http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Games/Interviews/stardock_reactor/ it seems that Impulse reactor based games will not require the installation of Impulse to update themselves. In fact, they will not require the installation of any client (with the store that came along) in order to be installed, activated, patched and having access to some MP features.

In that article, Brad clearly states that the main problem with Steamwork is the requirement of having the Steam client installed and launched with the game.

112

ZehDon

on May 07, 2010

Dale_

reply 110

...I'm saying that Brad shouldn't accuse 2K of doing exactly what he's doing with Elemental...

I understand your reasoning, however there is a difference between Elemental being Impulse exclusive and Civ V being locked to Steam. Firstly, Civ V is a third party game. Valve titles won't be made available via Impulse, Direct 2 Drive, etc., because Valve choses to sell them via Steam only. It's a first party Steam game. Elemental is the same, it's a first party Impulse game. And frankly, there is no issue with this. I don't care that Half-life, Team Fortress 2, etc., are avaiable only via Steam. Hell, if you made a game and had a channel to sell it, you'd sell it via your own channel, especially if that channel's profits paid the salaries of your company's employees, and funded your future game development. The issue comes with third party games. Steamworks ensures that the games equiped with Steamworks only work on Steam. This isn't Valve making decisions about their own games or their own customers, this is Valve making decisions for everyone else and taking other peoples customers by force. Platform exclusive titles are a natual occurance and there is nothing wrong with that. The console market evidences that platform exclusives, like Halo and Resistance, are actually a good thing and promote competition and thus change, which benefits the entire industry. However this isn't a platform exclusive like Halo or Resitance; this is software that is locked out from other platforms by design and by fundamental principal. 2K didn't sign a deal to make the game exclusive, they signed a deal to enable the game to use Steamworks DRM to protect their software. Valve made that software deliberatly not function without their client installed to ensure that the entire customer base of Civilisation V isn't shopping on Impulse or Direct 2 Drive, their looking at Steam's product catalogue between games. It's a Trojan Horse product placement, and it's anti-competition behaviour and is in no way the same as simply saying 'this title is going to be on Steam only' much in the same as Halo is only available on the Xbox. It's saying 'Impulse can sell this title, but only if they agree that their customers don't use Impulse.' Imagine if you purchased a copy of GTAIV for the PS3 and instead of a copy of GTAIV for the PS3, you got a voucher for the PC Version or Xbox 360 version because the DRM on GTAIV doesn't work on the PS3. Do you honestly believe that's ok?

113

Dale_

on May 07, 2010

ZehDon

reply 112

Quoting Dale_, reply 110...I'm saying that Brad shouldn't accuse 2K of doing exactly what he's doing with Elemental...
I understand your reasoning, however there is a difference between Elemental being Impulse exclusive and Civ V being locked to Steam. Firstly, Civ V is a third party game. Valve titles won't be made available via Impulse, Direct 2 Drive, etc., because Valve choses to sell them via Steam only. It's a first party Steam game. Elemental is the same, it's a first party Impulse game. And frankly, there is no issue with this. I don't care that Half-life, Team Fortress 2, etc., are avaiable only via Steam. Hell, if you made a game and had a channel to sell it, you'd sell it via your own channel, especially if that channel's profits paid the salaries of your company's employees, and funded your future game development. The issue comes with third party games. Steamworks ensures that the games equiped with Steamworks only work on Steam. This isn't Valve making decisions about their own games or their own customers, this is Valve making decisions for everyone else and taking other peoples customers by force. Platform exclusive titles are a natual occurance and there is nothing wrong with that. The console market evidences that platform exclusives, like Halo and Resistance, are actually a good thing and promote competition and thus change, which benefits the entire industry. However this isn't a platform exclusive like Halo or Resitance; this is software that is locked out from other platforms by design and by fundamental principal. 2K didn't sign a deal to make the game exclusive, they signed a deal to enable the game to use Steamworks DRM to protect their software. Valve made that software deliberatly not function without their client installed to ensure that the entire customer base of Civilisation V isn't shopping on Impulse or Direct 2 Drive, their looking at Steam's product catalogue between games. It's a Trojan Horse product placement, and it's anti-competition behaviour and is in no way the same as simply saying 'this title is going to be on Steam only' much in the same as Halo is only available on the Xbox. It's saying 'Impulse can sell this title, but only if they agree that their customers don't use Impulse.' Imagine if you purchased a copy of GTAIV for the PS3 and instead of a copy of GTAIV for the PS3, you got a voucher for the PC Version or Xbox 360 version because the DRM on GTAIV doesn't work on the PS3. Do you honestly believe that's ok?

So what you're saying to me is that there is a difference between:

1. Buying Elemental from a brick 'n mortar, or Amazon, or D2D, or to hell with it Steam, and then be forced to use Impulse for multiplayer and updates?

2. Buying Civilization 5 from a brick 'n mortar, or Amazon, or D2D, or to hell with it Impulse, and then be forced to use Steam for multiplayer and updates?

114

-RAISTLIN-

on May 07, 2010

ZehDon

reply 112

This isn't Valve making decisions about their own games or their own customers, this is Valve making decisions for everyone else and taking other peoples customers by force.

its 2K's decision, not valve's.

115

Strand

on May 07, 2010

Dale_

reply 113

So what you're saying to me is that there is a difference between:

1. Buying Elemental from a brick 'n mortar, or Amazon, or D2D, or to hell with it Steam, and then be forced to use Impulse for multiplayer and updates?

2. Buying Civilization 5 from a brick 'n mortar, or Amazon, or D2D, or to hell with it Impulse, and then be forced to use Steam for multiplayer and updates?

There's a difference because you don't need Impulse (the store) for the multiplayer and updates for third-party games. There's a difference because you will need Steam installed to simply run the game. There's a difference because if you were to buy any Stardock published games from retail, you never actually have to install Impulse at all.

Seems like a fairly significant difference.

116

ne_zavarj

on May 07, 2010

-RAISTLIN-

reply 114

its 2K's decision, not valve's.

to use steamworks instead of other copy protection method?

117

Frogboy

on May 07, 2010

I'm not arguing the perspective of 2K, Firaxis or Civilization as a series. Your original comment implied you wouldn't participate with Civ5 due to the deal struck between Valve and 2K to use Steamworks. From a purely business point of view I can totally understand that you would not want to favour Impules's direct competitor. That I totally understand.

I was arguing the point that if you really are dropping Civ5 because of the inclusion Steamworks then that is a little hypocritical due to the requirement of Impulse for Elemental (as specified on the product page). Like Civ5, Elemental will be available through brick 'n mortar, Amazon and other locations (I'm assuming) yet to participate in the community and receive patch updates, an Impulse account and installation will be required. How is this different to Civ5? It's NOT.

I think I've made pretty clear my reasoning. For me, it would be like the CEO of AMD buying Intel based CPUs. It's hardly hypocritical.

Civ V's success comes at our expense. Thus, I don't want to support that. I'd feel the same way if it were being sold exclusively at Walmart and I was CEO of Best Buy.

118

-RAISTLIN-

on May 07, 2010

lackoo1111

reply 116

to use steamworks instead of other copy protection method?

yep.

119

Frogboy

on May 07, 2010

I'm sorry, but when the CEO of a competitor to Steam slags on their competitor's software, they should make sure there's no reason to be called out that their software does the same.

What are you talking about? Where have I slagged on Steam or Steamworks? Which part of "Steam is a good system and Steamworks is a good SDK" is considered slagging?

120

Strand

on May 07, 2010

I'm supporting you, Frogboy. However I must point out that while you might not be 'slagging' Steam/Steamworks, you aren't painting them in a very positive light.

Frogboy

reply 60

The issue is the lock-in to the Steam client. Steamworks could have been architected not to force the bundling of their store client. But it does.

I like Steam. And as a developer, I appreciate what Steamworks provides. However, I do not want to be lending my support to something that is clearly designed to turn the PC into a closed platform.

If I make a game for the iPhone, I understand that I have to sell it on the App store (as a practical matter). But as a PC developer and consumer, I don't want to see the PC become a closed platform.

If you take Steamworks to its logical conclusion, then in 5 years, the PC platform will be closed. If you want to make a PC game that will see a reasonable audience, you will have to sell it on Steam and accept whatever requirements Steam insists on. We already have people trying to pressure us to sell our titles on Steam (even though Steam takes about a third of the revenue on any title sold on it).

Let's be realistic here, in 5 years, if Steamworks and Steam were to completely dominate the market, there'd be no real reason to have games at retail. Putting games at retail is expensive. Think that's a great thing for consumers? Think again.

You imply that their actions (lock-in to a client) could have been avoided, and is in fact very detrimental the industry as a whole. I don't disagree with you.

He's definitely not 'slagging' them though. This could be considered the most negative comment about them Frogboy has made. Though I may not be entirely up to date on what 'slagging' entails, I don't think this is it. I would of thought there would be more unsupported statements and wild accusations.

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