Really?  In my experience it was pretty much the same as a regular install - you just change the install directory of the mod.  And aren't third party mods still free? 

It depends on how much you are willing to sacrifice for multiplayer.  

I haven't heard any indication that multiplayer was even a consideration by 2K.  The only advantage I see is that it makes it easier for them to have a combined multiplayer experience.  

That said, to be honest and at the risk of offending someone at 2K, this isn't some indie developer without resources we're talking about. 2K is an $800+ million company. And this isn't some risky, new, RTS or FPS they're doing. It's their flagship PC strategy game and it's turn based making it even easier. And it's not cross platform so it's not as if they had multiple implementations to deal with.

Strictly speaking from a business perspective, I cannot understand their choice. And I don't mean Steam vs. Impulse or what have you.  I mean the choice of using anything that forces bundling a third party store on their customers on a title that doesn't particularly benefit from the arrangement in the first place.

 

 

Here's another reply from Elizabeth (who's just doing her job -- a very tough one these days):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9168018&postcount=357

She frankly doesn't have a lot of answers on how it'll work with things like mods. 

Given how important mods are to the Civ community, steam requiring the latest update while some mods aren't updated in a timely manner if at all, etc., and the fact that Elizabeth -- the person who should be informed of the how this'll work if 2k knew how it'd work -- doesn't have a lot of answers, it is not unreasonable to have concerns.  I get the feeling that 2k is winging this -- the decision to force steamworks came from on high, and the devs are stuck trying to minimize losses while making it work.

If push comes to shove, civ is just one game among steam's many, and I'd be surprised if steam would change to accommodate civ.  Civ changing to accommodate steam is more likely, and likely to be for the worse not better.

My apologies as it seems that I did. I did see your original message but the last one was not directed at someone in particular so I assumed it was a... wider statement directed at anyone talking about copyright issuse who are not copyright lawyers. Again, sorry!

 

 

Okay, first, wikipedia is great for a lot of things, but it's not case law and citing cases is a lot stronger than throwing up wikipedia articles. Second, i want you tp look at what you are actually saying and what i am saying. They have a rights to control copying, copying, the act of making copies. They do not have the right to control INDIVIDUAL copies. It's completely different. Making backup copies of legally obtained media, reselling legal copies of media, and god forbid, being able to use your media without asking copyright holders for permission to do so each and every damn time you want to use it, is not exploting their work. Copying their work and selling it yourself is against copyrightholders right. Copying their work and saying it is your work is against copyrightholders rights. 

Copyright holders are not supposed to have control over individual copies. That does not invalidate their copyright, it just means they shouldn't have any more say than book publishers did in trying destroying libraries and garage sales. What's ridiculious is that as they stomp all over our rights as consumers, they want us to back them up and "understand" why they cover their unpolished often unfinished products in heavy DRM schemes.

 

It's interesting that you ask a question, but then try to sell me the answer. Steam is not valuable to me. It does not not add any value for me. I don't care about those things that you seem so enthralled about. If I buy a title from Steam or Impulse, it's because at that time it is the cheapest option for me, and it's so cheap I chose it over the physical disc, which is what I still prefer. I had no problems getting Mods for Civ IV, and finding the community driven mod was a easy as downloading game patches, the kind of game patches Stardock hordes for only registered users. The game patches that Steam can take forever to release while those not using Steam already have it.

I've been playing games for years. I don't need hand holding to hook up with my friends online. Direct IP has always been fine with me. We buy games together, we get them to work together and have played some games for years.  The only value impulse and steam provide me is one, is they don't require a disc anymore (which is nice actually) and two I can download the title again if i want to with few problems (the biggest one being when one of them nolonger exists or changes their we can do whatever we want whenever we want to EULAs). Hell, some of Steam third party titles require that you have you to have a steam version of a game to use their expansion, so i could pay say 10 dollars for a game but need to spend 30 for the expansion when the store down the street has it for 5, because steam requires me to use the steam version. no thank you.

I want the choice. There is no reason why these games can't be tweaked to work with whatever format the consumer wants to use, whether it's steam, impulse or just throw in the disc and have at it. Hell there probably isnt' a good reason why someone who has a legal copy shouldn't be able to switch between them. It's just another roadblock setup to stop pirates that doesn't actually stop pirates.

I'm surprised anyone defending Steam exclusivity would try to ignore the modding issue. I presume they don't use mods?

Steam requires games to have the latest version of the game without exception. Mods, by contrast, sometimes lag behind a bit and have to be updated. My favorite mod might not work with the latest version right away. 

As Sins has shown, there will be pirates even when we colonize space. As Sins has shown, they are UNSTOPPABLE.

Pirates have badges of honor when they crack a supposedly "Uncrackable Game". There is even VPN (virtual private networks) which allow people to play hacked games in a large community. This will get a lot more popular the more developers take control. People that would have never thought of DLing a stolen game will switch sides.

Edit: I also don't want to update unless I wish to. Sum updates wreck the game. I do not want Free Crap thrown in.

Apparently steam will need to be running in the background, even when offline for an offline single-player game.

2K Elizabeth:

"As for Steam, yes, it will be running, because it works with the game. I am confident that Steam will not slow down your game (even in late game periods.) We're building Civ with Steam - and we don't want the game to slow down at any point, period."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9176392&postcount=535

That's how Steam works since it first started in 2003. What's the news?

Oh geez, lessee now...

Could it be that to play -- not validate an install but merely play -- a single-player offline game we're now expected to blithely accept the requirement of running unnecessary third-party software?

Could it be how far the goalposts are being moved?

Could it be how this is not for the benefit of players but for the benefit of 2k and at our expense -- because if they truly believed steam was a 'benefit we'll enjoy' it would be optional?

Or could it be that your question is deliberately obtuse?

Delivering Civ5 via steam as one buying option -- ok.

Requiring a one-time online activation of a steam DD installation -- ok.

Requiring steam running the the background to merely play a single-player offline game, especially one that was bought in a B&M store and installed via DVD -- not ok.

This ain't rocket science...

This has been confirmed as possible by Dennis Shirk (Producer) a number of times.  He cited CivFanatics, WePlayCiv and Apolyton as sites to visit for the majority of fan mods.

I think this is the overall feelings of everyone arguing against this development.  First party titles aside, I like choice and I like flexibility - this is why I own a PC to begin with.  Why are people in favour of trading all the benefits of a PC away?  So their shortcuts are in one location?  Really?


Quote of the day.


You're exhibiting a little much common sense there Brad, please proceed to your nearest education center for re-processing.

Seriously though, this is pretty much where my confusion comes from as well.  Because we'll never know the details behind the deal with 2K and Valve, we can only use the details at hand to figure it out.  From what I can see, Valve must have given 2K a really really really really ridiculously sweet deal, almost to the point of 2K second guessing Valve's motives.  They're locking out all other Digitial Distribution platforms with this deal and thus restricting their player base to retail purchases or Valve customers.  Valve are clearly attempting to piggy back into new PCs off of the biggest name releases they can get theirs hand on; Civilisation is simply the name in turn based strategy, and scoring it as an exlcusive is an absolute win for Valve in terms of expanding their customer base.  I bet more than a few bottles of bubbly were opened at Valve's offices the day that contract was signed.


This is really down to the game itself.  Some games on Steam, like KotoR for example, can't be modded without replacing the executible file itself because Steam quickly checks the file information for the game at launch.  To be able to play the game in Widescreen, for example, you need to crack the execute file; Steam treats the modifications needed to get Widescreen working as some kind of unwanted exploit and simply prevents the game from running.  You can only Mod what they want you to mod, and I didn't buy a PC to be told what to do with it.  The fact that I have to mess around Steam's file to circumvent it's protection to then update my game which I legally purchased shows me the system fundamentally flawed.

On the issue of the licensing of software, it's an interesting area of the Law.  I myself was a Law Clerk for a few years (now an Accounts Clerk) so I have a little understanding - at least in Australia - of how it works.  Essentially, the End User License Agreement, known as EULA, is entered into voluntarily by the parties - you and the company - which then details all of the restrictions placed upon both parties in mutual agreement.  You'll note, however, that there is no standard EULA or set of restrictions as there is in the film industry.  All films are protected under what the Law considered fair restrictions.  The EULA however allows a company to place additional restrictions outside of what the Law has established as a 'right' on either party - in this case the person who purchased the game.  All that is required to make the agreement binding is a sign of agreement - for games, it's simply playing the game and for application its using the software.  Playing or using means that you've read the game EULA and agree to it, and thus are then bound by the terms of the agreement, or EULA.  This allows them the legal manouvering to make things like licensing a purchased product with additional restriction which aren't protected by law legal and binding, like DRM and limited number of installs.  There is really nothing they can't put in the EULA, because you enter into voluntarily.  I believe a game seller, as an April Fools joke, put an immortal soul clause into their EULA - if the law acknowledged the existance of the soul, it would've actually been legally binding.  Such is the wonderful world of the EULA.

Just to point out that US case law is only relevant in the US.  Every country has their own copyright laws, and most are based off the Berne Convention which dictates the minimum base level of copyright law required by signatories.  One such condition is that the copyright law jurisdiction is applied where the copyright material is used, not created.  Thus for me, Australian copyright law applies (and for you I assume US copyright law).

In 2006 Australian copyright law was amended in response to the US-AUS FTA.  One of the amendments strengthened anti-circumvention laws, for the first time making it illegal in Australia to circumvent technical measures used by copyright owners to protect access to their works, and expanding the measures which count as technological protection measures which may not be circumvented.  In other words, how copyright holders apply control over individual copies of their work (DRM and other methods).  The legal exceptions only cover recording of TV and radio for later personal viewing, and format-shifting media (transferring from one legally owned device to another, such as from CD to PC to iPod).  However the exception only applies when all formats are legally owned by the same individual.  Apple tested this law and failed, trying to protect Aussies shifting iTunes Store music onto CD's.

Note also that Australia applies 'fair dealing' which is not the same as the US 'fair use' exceptions.  Australia's exceptions list is not open-ended like the US where there is a three-point test to apply exception.  Under Australian copyright law it is assumed a breach UNLESS covered by 'fair dealing' (which is a very narrow list such as journalism, legal requirement, satire and a couple of others).  Thus all exclusive rights of the copyright holder apply (as opposed to the US where all exclusive rights of the owner of copyright material applies).

So in Australia, copyright holders legally control use of copyright material.

EXACTLY!

Like the Civ Fanatics HOF mod.  After a patch it's usually 2-4 weeks at least before the HOF mod is updated for the new patch as they test thing to either work with new features of the patch and to make sure things aren't broken.

 

You guys go deep into a subject and manage to stay on subject.  I'll have to return more often!

 

Sorry off topic, back to it chaps!

 

You can turn off autoupdate...

 

I guess I really just don't understand the "we don't like it because we want choices - I just don't want it installed on my computer," position.  It seems so...trivial.  Unless there's a specific problem with the service (such as the autoupdate misunderstanding posted above), I just don't understand why someone would think it's such an inconvenience that 21 megs of ram is being taken up by another program.  Saying "it just is, I don't want it" reminds me of being back in highshool.  The "Steam is not valuable to me, I'll never use those features" argument seems a bit - well, self centered.  Okay, so - you don't have to use the extra features.  To say the whole system should topple down and any attempt to come up with a  dedicated community center that aims to benefit the whole community should be demolished, well, that's a bit much.  

 

Things could be so much worse with DRM, and when a company turns around and includes features that actually benefit the player (unlimited downloads, proposed community integration, no disk, etc etc), it just boggles the mind when gamers complain.  But what I absolutely don't get, is when features outside of the game are what stop people from purchasing it.  Sorry but I plan to spend most of my time in  game, not ogling my task manager in awe of how efficient it's running. 

Anyway, I don't think it's worth continuing this discussion with me.  It seems the antisteam stance is either fear against a proposed future monopoly, speculation about charged DLC/features, a supercharged desire to have a choice in the all important "which service will I use with my videogame" question, or a Task Manager watcher who would rather watch the processes screen than their game.  

 

Life is too short.  I'm gonna go spend time with my wife and once Civ 5 comes out I'll jump on that.  Hopefully I'll see a SINS 2 soon, and thanks for contributing to this Brad, you're definitely one of a kind and it's interesting getting your take on this.  You guys are one of the few companies I gladly fork over my money to.